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By yicky yacky (Fri Oct 20, 2006 at 06:58:46 AM EST) veils, monkeys (all tags)

Well, it's now been two weeks since Blackburn MP Jack Straw (the former Foreign Secretary and current Leader of the House Of Commons) penned his now-infamous column regarding the wearing of veils (niqab) by women adhering to a certain interpretation of the tenets of Islam. Perhaps surprisingly and perhaps not, the debate is still rumbling unabated.



In the past fortnight, we've had stories of teachers suspended for wearing the niqab and British Airways workers sent home for wearing the cross; We've had claim and counter-claim, windbaggery of all hues, pompous opinion-mongering from every conceivable angle and the capitalisation thereon so, seeing as everyone's making fat-headed comments on this, one more seems like a grain of sand on a beach of indignance.

This issue is political dynamite precisely because you can spin it to touch on any of a number of "great issues" troubling the world today that you might be keen to debate. If you want to talk about immigration, you can use it to that end; the war on terror likewise; ditto the debates on religion and secularity; the issues of spin and political expediency also; the cynicism and power of the media; the rights of individuals versus those of society; the power of the state etcetera etcetera ... It's a blow-hard's charter. Party on, Garth!

I've read and listened to these debates in a state oscillating between those of cynical, misanthropic stoicism, detached analysis and livid bluster. Billy Connolly used to do a routine about the F-word, stating how all his portable radios ended-up "furry" as they became "pebble-dashed with muesli" from reacting to broadcast fatuity: "FFfffucking ... Bwarstar ... Bllloody ..." etc. This week, I know what he means.

Firstly, there's the natural frustration that this issue is still occupying a disproportionate share of the nation's media bandwidth; it's not that it isn't worth discussing, but it's been something akin to a DDOS attack at times. Secondly, there is the disheartenment felt when, yet again, someone hijacks the issue to talk about something related, but not the issue being discussed. Thirdly, there is just bad logic; Clifford Longley, on this week's Moral Maze [Real Audio which, like messages in Mission Impossible, will self destruct after one week] rather sneeringly referred to the reaction as being to do with a rising tide of "aggressive secularism". How any religious adherent who doesn't secretly harbour dreams of theocracy could ever be against a strand of robustly-defended secularity is beyond me; it's "aggressive anti-theism" you need to be worried about, bro'.

At its core, the issue has only ever really been about the collision of two noble but only semi-enshrined liberties: The right to wear what one likes versus the right to interact with other people how one wishes (both within "reasonable" limits: The "wearing" of automatic weapons is frowned upon, as is having people interacting with your fists etc.).

I hate suits. One of the few times I've agreed whole-heartedly with Tony Blair was when he spoke wearily of "the tyranny of the tie". Fortunately, I often work from home, which means that you'll frequently find me shoe-less, unshaven and wearing baggy jeans (in various states of shabbiness) and a sweatshirt. I don't expect to be able to get away with such louche couture in the office, however. Likewise, I'm sure my line manager would rather accept the delusion that I'm up at 5:30am, dressed with militarily crisp cleanliness and working diligently for the greater corporate good.

These trivial examples hide a serious point. The right to wear what we want is only a "soft" right as is, equally, the right to deal with people on our own terms. Your right to swing your arms ends at my face etc. The issue becomes complicated, however, when public money and services get involved. My bank and my employer can largely choose the terms upon which they wish to deal with their customers and employees, but there is no consumer market in governments, although money is taken for services rendered just the same. This is when these vague types of right seem to become overbearingly important.

When the French debated the wearing of the hijab in schools a couple of years ago, we watched with fascination as a French minister told Jeremy Paxman that the idea of children wearing the hijab "is a kind of violence to us". France is perhaps the most avowedly secular society in the world; their organisational departements are the result of a rational division process (much as it also served to disintegrate feudal loyalties); the metric system was originally a french product and yet they see no inconsistency in declaring the wearing of the hijab "a kind of violence". One could debate for hours what that comment meant, but I think most people can understand it in a socialist (with a small 's') context. I'd remind you that they were talking about schoolchildren, not the wider cultural liberties. Despite being so avowedly secular, religion of many stripes flourishes in France, especially in the south.

When I read Jack Straw's original article (linked above), I remember wondering what the fuss was about. He is well within his rights to ask, and his constituents are well within their rights to refuse. The reaction to the whole affair, though, speaks of a country ill-at-ease with its cultural priorities. Nothing in our laws or cultural heritage justify either the bloviant accusations of racism aimed at Mr. Straw or accusations of militancy, terrorism and fanatical intransigence directed towards the niqab-wearers. Taking a leaf out of Mr. Sartre's book, what we have here is a situation where the crime is actually a failure to choose; a dithering hope that things will sort themselves out in the wash without society-level proclamations of principle.

We don't do society-level proclamations of principle very well in this country; they are something akin to "a kind of violence" to us. We're British. We "muddle through". We find a happy medium. We have "stiff upper lips" and "quiet determination". We drink tea. Well, that last bit is true, at least. We are a secular nation, albeit one with an official religion. We are a democracy, albeit one with a sitting monarch. We believe in freedom of the press, but doubt the public value of what they print, We have over a thousand years of law and heritage, but no constitution. It's a compromise. It's a mish mash. It's a hack. It's a mess. It kind of works, though.

Except when it doesn't.

 

-=+=-

 

Salvation?

I notice that those crazy US-Anglo boffins have cooked up a material from which "Invisibilty suits" can be made. Cue much revival of H.G. Wells, Ghost in the shell etc.

Perhaps if we make niqabs and pinstripe suits out of it ...

 

-=+=-

 

Trollish cheese and biscuits

Should one expect the wearer of a full-face balaclava (USians: ski mask) to be treated with equity by organs of the state?

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Veiled Comment | 33 comments (33 topical, 0 hidden) | Trackback
Excellent paragraph by Breaker (4.00 / 1) #1 Fri Oct 20, 2006 at 07:17:33 AM EST
Beginning: We're British. We "muddle through".

Sums us up quite nicely I think.  If that's OK with everyone else?  Lovely.

Biscuit with your tea?

Have you read Paxman's "The English" BTW?




I've not read it by yicky yacky (2.00 / 0) #4 Fri Oct 20, 2006 at 08:04:04 AM EST

I got given a copy for one Christmas but it's been at an auntie[*]'s house ever since despite me having been round there numerous times.

I met him once at college. He was vey junk. Arrogant, but in a good way. I think he knows better than most of the highbrow pitbulls when to let things flow and when to go for the jugular. You listen to some of them (Humphrys, Essler, Naughtie) and think, "You're just being aggressive for the sake of it; this point isn't the weak one; knock it off" etc., but Paxman (and Wark) tend to get the balance right more often than not.


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[*] by yicky yacky (2.00 / 0) #6 Fri Oct 20, 2006 at 08:19:25 AM EST

What is the correct internet form with which to refer to one's parents' female siblings?

  • 'aunt' sounds too formal to my ears, as if you have pretensions to 19th century greatness: "Whilst at the residence of my aunt, I noticed $culturalTheoryOfOverwhelmingSignificance"

  • 'aunty' seems too childishly informal, but is more in line with what people say on the street, especially in the north.

  • 'auntie' seems like a mildly more formal form of the second.

They're all pretty horrible.


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actually by martingale (4.00 / 1) #7 Fri Oct 20, 2006 at 08:28:23 AM EST
you raise a good point. What about when the Queen dies and Charles becomes the king, will the government be referred to as uncle?
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$E(X_t|F_s) = X_s,\quad t > s$
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No affectionate name for the government. by ambrosen (4.00 / 2) #32 Fri Oct 20, 2006 at 07:42:43 PM EST
Aunty's the BBC

With a pretty smooth ride since 1066, save Oliver Cromwell, we have only one concept of a platonic ideal of government, which just 'is', good or bad.

For a Brit to see the institute of government outwith the properties of the current government would seem as alien as discussing what air would be like with the nitrogen replaced by xenon.

[ Parent ]

Auntie by ad hoc (4.00 / 1) #18 Fri Oct 20, 2006 at 10:34:11 AM EST
will forever remind me of Tina Turner
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Once you get used to the idea that everything is equally true, decisions get much easier. -- johnny
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I forget who he was interviewing by Breaker (4.00 / 1) #15 Fri Oct 20, 2006 at 09:28:25 AM EST
Some slimy politician who was dodging the question - Paxman just kept going, "just give me a yes or no answer".  Driveby telly at it's finest.


[ Parent ]

Are you, really, asking me by yicky yacky (4.00 / 1) #16 Fri Oct 20, 2006 at 10:00:48 AM EST

whether I threatened to overrule him?! [3:40]


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Great book by nebbish (4.00 / 2) #5 Fri Oct 20, 2006 at 08:10:56 AM EST
Must read it again one day. Books like that tend to be a bit trite but Paxman's had real depth.

I wasn't so keen on his book about politicians - it seemed it bit dry.

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It's political correctness gone mad!
[ Parent ]

Justin Pollard's by Breaker (4.00 / 2) #14 Fri Oct 20, 2006 at 09:27:24 AM EST
History of Britain is worth a go as well - very readable for a history book.


[ Parent ]

I think by martingale (4.00 / 2) #2 Fri Oct 20, 2006 at 07:26:06 AM EST
that for England it boils down to a question of respect. Respecting people is a social grace, but it's also an eminently practical thing. If I want something from you, and I am not in a position of power over you, then I don't have much of an alternative to showing you respect, well at least if I'm hoping to be successful in getting that thing.

So for example, if I want to enter a church to see the artwork, I wear something conservative and I keep quiet to not disturb the worshippers. Similarly, if I want to see my doctor, I am courteous and I don't wear a cowl, or make a fuss about taking off my clothes.

Conversely, if I'm minding my own business and I don't need to interact with people, showing respect is irrelevant.
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$E(X_t|F_s) = X_s,\quad t > s$


+1FP by nebbish (4.00 / 4) #3 Fri Oct 20, 2006 at 07:35:59 AM EST
...but still no answers, I notice.

Which is because there aren't any answers. Bearing this in mind, I think we're dealing with it all exceptionally well. The press will bang on about it until everyone is bored out of their minds, and the issue will go away simply because people can't be arsed with it any more. Problem solved.

In the short term, anyway.

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It's political correctness gone mad!


One of my favourite aspects of UK/Aus culture by Phage (4.00 / 2) #8 Fri Oct 20, 2006 at 08:44:54 AM EST
In the early 90's a nutjob professor wanted to come to Aus from the US (I think) to give a presentation on how the Holocaust never happened, it was all a Zionist conspiracy to get Israel off the ground.
At first he was denied a visa on the premise that it would only cause civil unrest. He appealed, and won the right to give his talk. There was much trepidation in the media and Canberra.

Nothing happened

People read the beat ups in the media, correctly deduced that he was a nutjob, and ignored the whole thing entirely. No one attended, no one demonstrated and no one rioted. He was utterly ignored. Eventually the media packed up and went home too.
It's one of my warmest memories of Australia.

The Czar of Accounting. No Nit Too Small To Pick
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That's brilliant by nebbish (4.00 / 1) #9 Fri Oct 20, 2006 at 08:58:16 AM EST
Common sense in action. Very Aussie.

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It's political correctness gone mad!
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Which is why liberty works by cam (4.00 / 1) #10 Fri Oct 20, 2006 at 09:04:52 AM EST
IAWTP VTFP. by Phage (4.00 / 1) #11 Fri Oct 20, 2006 at 09:08:23 AM EST


The Czar of Accounting. No Nit Too Small To Pick
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No veils in the workplace by jump the ladder (4.00 / 1) #12 Fri Oct 20, 2006 at 09:09:49 AM EST
Unless everyone else agrees. Face to face communication is in our culture plus it seems to make most people uncomfortable. You haven't an absolute right to wear what you like when working with other people.

Jack Straw had the right to ask women to remove the veil and they have the right to refuse. It's a seperate issue really and it's unfortunate that the the niqab wearing teacher case occurred around theb same time.



No dhimmitude by ReallyEvilCanine (3.60 / 5) #13 Fri Oct 20, 2006 at 09:20:37 AM EST
Muslims bitch about how unfair the West is to expect Muslims who wish to live in Western society to accept that society's norms, all while ignoring the legal requirements in Muslim countries that all conform to their rather oppressive rules and restrictions.

It would be unacceptable if a Christian fundamentalist called for someone's death in accordance with his Big Book of the Real Truth of the Invisible Sky Giant but this is exactly what Muslims are doing around the world. Christians boycott magazines and newspapers which insult them; Muslims riot and kill.

Fact 1: The woman, working as a teacher, could not be understood by her students because she insisted on wearing a veil and said she had to wear it at all times

Fact 2: The woman admitted she had not worn the veil at her interview, thus negating her argument that she must always wear it

The rights to personal religious observation do not trump the rights of others. A blind man cannot claim discrimination because he's not allowed to be a driving instructor. Likewise a teacher who is unable to perform her job is likewise not being discriminated against. If you can't pass on information in a way students can understand, you are not -- by definition -- "teaching".

Just more disingenuous claims of discrimination, with extra hype thrown in by the tabloids.

Fuck dhimmitude.



Another troll by anonimouse (4.00 / 1) #17 Fri Oct 20, 2006 at 10:06:54 AM EST
Does this mean all the teens in shopping malls can go back to wearing hoodies now?

I think employers are entitled to ask for a dress code in a place of employment. As far as where the dividing line between state and religion goes, I'm with the French on this one. The state would only cross the line if it told us all to wear blue boiler suits or similar i.e. it told us what to wear, as opposed to what we should not wear on government premises.


Girls come and go but a mortgage is for 25 years -- JtL


methinks you misunderstand the french position by martingale (4.00 / 4) #19 Fri Oct 20, 2006 at 11:26:02 AM EST
The French position isn't about what kind of clothes you wear, it's whether what you wear is religious specifically or not. The point is that as a state employee, you must not proselitize your beliefs.

So you can wear a cowl if you like, but if it's a religious cowl then it's a no-no (all things being equal, in reality dress codes etc apply). Similarly, you can wear a cross as long as it's hidden under your clothes so nobody sees it. The state is non-religious, and frowns on religious displays because they are divisive, and perpetuate ignorance and bigotry. That's also why the ban applies to school children as well, as long as they are in the care of the state during school hours.

If you're in the street on your own, or in a house of worship or a private place, by all means you can dye your hair purple and worship Barney the dinosaur.
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$E(X_t|F_s) = X_s,\quad t > s$
[ Parent ]

Cool by Phage (4.00 / 3) #20 Fri Oct 20, 2006 at 11:48:41 AM EST
All praise the evil one !

The Czar of Accounting. No Nit Too Small To Pick
[ Parent ]

Worshipping Barney the Dinosaur by anonimouse (4.00 / 3) #21 Fri Oct 20, 2006 at 12:12:55 PM EST
Is just a small step on the road to worshipping mighty Cthulhu!

Girls come and go but a mortgage is for 25 years -- JtL
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when a giant squid by martingale (4.00 / 2) #31 Fri Oct 20, 2006 at 07:35:13 PM EST
can rip' your 'ead 'off with his smallest tentacle, you better worship the soddin' bastard.
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$E(X_t|F_s) = X_s,\quad t > s$
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+1, FP by MohammedNiyalSayeed (4.00 / 2) #22 Fri Oct 20, 2006 at 01:02:27 PM EST

Because the subject is interesting, but more importantly, because I read this like three times in a row, just because it was so well-written.


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You can build the most elegant fountain in the world, but eventually a winged rat will be using it as a drinking bowl.


You guys have a race minister? by Christopher Robin was Murdered (4.00 / 1) #23 Fri Oct 20, 2006 at 02:13:00 PM EST
How is it that Americans get accused of being race obsessed when you guys have a freaking governmental post actually called "race minister"?

Is there a class minister and a gender minister as well?



Sloppy journalism by yicky yacky (4.00 / 2) #24 Fri Oct 20, 2006 at 02:34:50 PM EST

Phil Woolas is a Minister of State for Local Government & Community Cohesion. There is no official positon called "race minister". There's a commission for racial equality, but that's a different thing.

Cart!

Has it occurred that we don't have your issues because we have these things? Perhaps it's also because we instituted slave rights in 1772 and banned it altogether in the early 1800s. Your horse may well be high, but it's not very tall.

Horse!


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Our issues? by Christopher Robin was Murdered (3.00 / 2) #26 Fri Oct 20, 2006 at 03:05:20 PM EST
Do you mean massive governmental cock-ups over the line between freedom of worship and the legally mandated secularity of public institutions? Or were you thinking of dust-ups over public religious displays? Or did you mean religiously-inspired terrorists attacking a major city's financial district?

Which of the above has you race minister prevented?

[ Parent ]

Oh, I'm sorry. by yicky yacky (2.00 / 0) #27 Fri Oct 20, 2006 at 03:15:53 PM EST

You were being serious? I treated your question with a vacuity commensurate to its asking.


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Somebody was being serious? by Christopher Robin was Murdered (4.00 / 2) #28 Fri Oct 20, 2006 at 03:22:42 PM EST
I can assure, Mr. Yacky, it wasn't me. You've got the wrong man. What I'm being is "an ignorant jackass." That's the term I think you were looking for.

Though I still think it is funny that you guys have, be it ever so unofficially, a "race minister."

[ Parent ]

Addendum by yicky yacky (4.00 / 1) #29 Fri Oct 20, 2006 at 03:22:50 PM EST

The concept of a superhero race minister has comedic legs, though. I'm thinking 4-part, 16-pages each to start with. Needs a villain.


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I don't know about the villian. by Christopher Robin was Murdered (4.00 / 1) #30 Fri Oct 20, 2006 at 03:30:30 PM EST
But for the main character, I think it would be funny if he was a completely xenophobic ass who simply thought he was sensitive. That way you get somebody who means well, but he's too far gone to even get why everything he says is a public relations disaster. I see a sort of Superman meets Prince Phillip character as the lead.

[ Parent ]

We have a poor media. by ambrosen (4.00 / 1) #33 Fri Oct 20, 2006 at 07:51:21 PM EST
Who do discuss politics, but in brush strokes so broad as to be misleading.

The minister for social inclusion is a fairly new post. I can't remember whether anything's done on women's issues.

There are 15ish cabinet ministers (home, foreign, finance, defence, transport, health, education and err, defra spring to mind) with a department and ministers who head up parts of the department.

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I've been staying out of this by aphrael (4.00 / 1) #25 Fri Oct 20, 2006 at 02:52:25 PM EST
as I don't understand the British political/cultural context well enough to comment on the particulars.

But it does seem to me that this issue, like the hijab issue, and the murder of Mr. Van Gogh, point to a problem that all of western society is dealing with: how do we deal with insular minorities who operate from vastly different cultural presuppositions and who would prefer a different legal framework?

I don't think any of our countries has developed a good answer to that question as yet.

If television is a babysitter, the internet is a drunk librarian who won't shut up.


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